Sunday, September 12, 2010

There's No Good Title for This: Star Wars Vs. 40k

So to finish off this trifecta of Star Wars related post, I'm going to increase my nerd factor by a significant factor and do a comparison that's been brewing in my mind for quite some time. Note this comparison will be more in a spiritual form than completely grounded in fact: unlike some people who analyze the impact of the Death Star's destruction on Endor, or argue over what would happen if the same fired on the Enterprise, I feel like with both the 40k and the SW universe it's important to focus more on the fiction than the science. I'll attempt to break this down into several subsections, going from most general to most specific, and deciding who has an edge.

Assumptions
The first big assumption would be location. The first problem is that the 40k universe is far larger than the SW one. 40k's Imperium of Man numbers around a million planets at a given time, while SW's listed planets number less than a hundred, and in total can't be more than in the hundreds. Therefore to get even  a balanced fight you'd have to assume the Imperium is launching an rather sizable expeditionary force against the SW's universe; so a new extragalactic invasion, but a different force. Timewise, we'll assume directly after NJO SW and "modern" 40k.

Structure & Organization
In general, 40k has the big advantage in that all the human planets are pretty much under one government, with one religion, one tongue, etc. Obviously it's not completely uniform, and many changes exist, but it's fundamentally far more unified than the SW universe is. Even the simple fact that the Galactic Alliance is still an alliance with a senate puts it at a disadvantage; there were beings arguing for peace with the Yuuzhan Vong even after the conquest of Coruscant. In comparison, while sometimes faulty, the Imperium benefits from a clear, unquestionable command structure and a fervent ideological belief, so is rather comparable to the Yuuzhan Vong in this respect, and would cause similar problems, and be similarly useless to negotiate with. On the flip side, individual commanders in the SW universe are given far more freedom and initiative, giving the GA far more flexibility and ease of response. This can obviously still work against them, since the GA is a bit more weak to infighting and clash of opinion than the Imperium, but it still is a nice benefit on a micro side of things. Despite this, though, the Imperium wins pretty easily in this category.
Imperium: 1
Alliance: 0

Technology
This section is where SW has a pretty big advantage. While the Imperium has some pretty awesome technology, and a lot of cool things, there aren't a ton of things that the Imperium has that the Alliance doesn't have something comparable. The other big advantage is the stagnation the the Imperium. Whatever they bring to the battle is often all they'll ever have, and often thing they lose are irreplaceable. The Alliance however is easily adjustable and is always evolving, and this gives a huge advantage. If they can get around YV black holes, I'm sure they can adjust to void shields, and if they can deal with amphistaffs I doubt chainswords will be problematic for long. Another nice touch is the Alliance's ability to use droids, especially things like the YV Hunter droids Lando develops, which would help balance out the sheer numbers of the Imperium and things like Sentinels and Dreadnaughts. Both the Tau and the Tyranids have used adaptability to overcome the Imperium, and I suspect the SW universe would also benefit from this. Technology can often vary widely through Imperial Worlds, to the point where you can sometimes (rarely) get IG regiments who use stubbers because they don't have lasgun technology. SW planets are pretty well distributed technology wise, with the exceptions of real backwaters, which is rarer than in the Imperium.
Imperium: 1
Alliance: 1


Standard Infantry
The standard lasgun and the standard blaster seem pretty similar in function and effectiveness, and the same for standard armor (I feel like Stormtrooper armor [in lore if not in the movies] is about the same as Carapace armor). Numbers-wise the Imperial Guard probably has an advantage, since the Alliance doesn't seem super hot on infantry combat, although 1v1 a Guardsman and an Alliance trooper are probably about evenly matched, again trading pure doctrinarian and standards for a bit more freedom and flexibility. Assuming even numbers, it'd be an even battle, but assuming respective norms the Imperium would probably have an advantage.
Imperium: 1.5
Alliance: 2

Ground Vehicles
While the movies showcase a lot of ground vehicles, in the EU and especially NJO they tend to have a very minor role, making them a bit harder to judge. SW is usually all about air and space superiority, and ground troops if you /have/ to take on ground targets. That being said, even assuming the technological adjustment I mentioned above, changing the whole way of making war would be time consuming and a bit difficult, so the Imperium would likely have a large advantage in mechanized combat and would enjoy it. (Not to even mention titans).
Imperium: 2.5
Alliance: 2

Starfighters
As far as I'm given to understand, Lightnings and Marauders and the like are simply more modern versions of our current fighter jets, in that they're simply armor and ballistics. SW has the advantage of true advanced fighters, with shields, lasers, missiles, etc. Fighters in the Imperium seem there mostly to engage other starfighters and harry smaller ships, whereas a concentrated starfighter strike will often take down capital ships given the right circumstances in SW. 40k fighters seem best suited to air support on planets, where SW ones have a complete superiority role often unless they're super specialized like B-wings. All in all, SW fighters would almost certainly outclass Imperial ships, giving the Alliance a huge advantage in space combat.
Imperium: 2.5
Alliance: 3

Capital Ships
The Imperium has an advantage in having bigger capital ships, while the Alliance has an advantage in them being much more numerous and much more easily produced. This is where things get a little tricky, given relative differences in fire power and weaponry, but it seems like the Alliance would have the pure advantage in terms of small and medium ships (both in terms of them being more common and usually packing more firepower and defenses). In terms of actual capital class ships, Imperial ones probably would easily come off the better in 1v1, but this is one case where SW has a big advantage, since the average fleet contains a number of Star Destroyers, Mon Calamari Cruisers, etc while it's a giant Imperial fleet that contains an equal number of large ships. They also seem far superior in terms of maneuverability and bringing fire to bear; Imperial ships seem like giant sea ships in terms of using broadsides, whereas SW ships are more like "true" space ships, giving them another advantage. The short story is that the SW universe is centered around space combat for the most part, whereas 40k is often more focused on ground combat. Nevertheless, it would still be a definite fight, even if SW has an advantage.
Imperium: 2.5
Alliance: 3.5

Elites
What you've all been waiting for this entire time, I'm sure: the question of Jedi vs. Space Marines. In a 1v1 setting, I'm going to say that an average Jedi will beat an average Space Marine every time. Jedi are notoriously hard to kill in ranged combat, and will close to CC range. The average Space Marine does not have a power weapon, whereas every Jedi does: this means that with anything up to and sometimes including a Sergeant the Jedi will win through pure weapon advantage (even a well-trained swordsman with a power sword in 40k lore will always beat a normal Space Marine, so I don't think this is at all a reach). When you throw power weapons into the mix, it gets a little closer. The Space Marine will have a lot of experience (oftentimes in the scale of hundreds of years) and the power weapon would theoretically the same as a lightsaber in terms of blocking and hitting, but the Jedi's Force ability usually means battle senses: no matter how much experience, the ability to foresee an opponent's move will usually be the deciding factor. Jedi are also faster and stronger than normal humans, albeit not as much as Space Marines, which is why I'll say that Jedi will probably often, if not always, beat a power-equipped SM. When you get to Librarians or Chapter Masters it gets interesting, since the Warp is way different than the Force. I suspect that one of the above versus a highly experienced Jedi Knight or Jedi Master would be a very close thing. If we get to named characters it's anyone's guess.
However, the key point is that Space Marines rarely work along, and are usually in squads of at least 5. Jedi often work in teams of 2 or 1, and it's a special occasion when you get more than that. So really the question comes down to statistically likely what size group would be fighting what other size. I was forced to do something I've prior to this been trying to avoid, that of looking up statistics.
In the SW univese, there's at the end of NJO around 200 Jedi left. According to Wookiepedia, there's about about 20 million planets with sentient life; a rather unhelpful figure, to be honest. The Galactic Alliance page puts the planets at about 1.2 million.
The galaxy pages states that the total population of the galaxy is 100 quadrillion lifeforms over 20 million planets, meaning an average of 5 billion per planet. I think these numbers are fishy, but let's run with it. That means that the Jedi:People ratio is about 1:3.6^13.
The averages for the Imperium are much much harder to come by, since they can vary from billions and billions on a hive world to mere hundreds on a frontier colony. However, the planets is an easy one million. To make thngs easy, let's also assume 5 billion per planet, giving the population roughly equal to the Alliances. Instead of 200 Jedi, though, you have roughly 1,000 chapters of 1,000, or a million marines, giving a much favorable ratio.
Even assuming the SW numbers of stupidly inflated (which it probably is, I don't think most SW writers would agree that the average planet has 5 billion lifeforms, or that the Alliance is composed of 1.2 million planets) 200 Jedi is still a tiny, tiny number, so the Space Marines would likely steamroll A LOT. I'm sure they could be taken down, but like everything else they fight, it would cost a lot.
Imperium: 3.5
Alliance: 3.5

Conclusion
I actually didn't have numbers or anything planned out while writing this, it all came kind of naturally, so I'm actually surprised the score came out even. Regardless, it seems the general gist is that SW holds the natural front on space combat, whereas the Imperium would dominate on the ground (although the space combat advantage would also likely turn into air superiority on the ground, which might change things; I doubt even hydras would do much vs. strafing X-Wings). It would probably be simply a race to make sure the Imperium never won a space battle to the point they could launch a ground invasion: in some ways, it would be very similar to the Yuuzhan Vong war in that respect, meaning the Alliance has some good experience fighting them off.
Again, I think the key point would be the technological one mentioned above. Much as the Yuuzhan Vong were a mostly static race, the Imperium would probably win a number of smashing victories out the gate, but as the Alliance adjusted that momentum would quickly peter out, and eventually the Alliance would have the upper hand. How much loss would occur before that is up for debate, but I feel an invasion of the SW universe by the Imperium would eventually end badly.
Of course, the big question is again the numbers. I assumed that 40k had a huge advantage, given the lore I've read in both, but apparently the technical facts on Wookipedia speak differently (I'm compelled to call bulls***, but who knows). Assuming the current wars-on-all-fronts of the Imperium, they wouldn't be able to devote as much resources as necessary; if they had somehow secured their galaxy, then they'd also be at an advantage. That would also mean you'd assume the SW galaxy was equally peaceful, but even at their worst they're never as war-torn as the 40k universe is.

Anyway, I've very curious to hear what you all think; what points you think I missed, what points you think I got wrong, etc. If I get enough interesting comments I might write a follow-up, since as I said this wasn't /that/ planned out. Other than that though, this'll probably be the last SW post for a while, so expect other things next time.

-HTMC

5 comments:

  1. A quick question: are post-Empire Jedi tougher than pre-Empire Jedi? Because being killed en masse by a bunch of glorified Guardsmen during Order 66 is a bit of a stain on the Jedi Order's supposed fighting capabilities. After all, shouldn't they have seen the betrayal coming if they have the prescience you claim?

    On the other hand, I know there's some canon about how most Jedi weren't really trained for war at that point (instead focusing on diplomacy), because the Sith had been so inactive (or quiet, at least), and I know very little about the new Order that Luke starts, so I'm out of my depth on that part.

    ReplyDelete
  2. In short: yes. I'm not as certain about the Order 66 incident. Here's what Wookipedia says:
    "The Jedi, who had been spread throughout the galaxy across disparate battlefields, were almost all caught totally unaware and easily gunned down. Three years of non-stop galactic warfare polluted the Force with the dark side, clouding Jedi perception even further. Because the clones had no malice nor hatred, but were merely following a legal order, they had no ill intent in their heart, which might have given some warning to the Jedi via the Force."

    Thus, combined with the fact that Order 66 had been a possibility given at training, not even the troopers were expecting it until they got it from their commanders.

    Anyway, that's not so important, but what is important is all the NJO Jedi have grown up during the galaxy in constant warfare, and during the YV are pretty much purely warriors and not so much diplomats. They also adjust to fighting Force-blind against YV, and have to rely on tiny split-second natural reactions rather than the full-on battle sense they were used to prior to the YV war. Otherwise, NJO Jedi can take on full squads of troopers fairly easily singlehandedly (A couple of the more powerful ones take on whole bases directly prior to NJO). I see no reason to assume that Space Marines wouldn't be Force-visible, since they are humans (base genetics-wise, anyway) and even if they weren't, if they can take on YV warriors, who are also trained from birth to fight, SM wouldn't be a /huge/ shift.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Space Marines actually are given massive amounts of mental training as a part of their indoctrination - they have to deal with lots of powerful psykers, after all. As such, they'd probably be difficult but not impossible for a Jedi to read, but in the heat of battle, it might be hard to see much more than "DEATH TO THE ENEMIES OF THE EMPRAH!."

    That said, as I mentioned earlier IRL, the better direct comparison to Jedi would be Space Marine Librarians or Grey Knights. Then, the strength of individual fighters and the numbers become a lot fairer (though there are still five times as many GKs as there are Jedi).

    And, of course, with named characters, this all goes out the window. I suspect that any Jedi would be hard-pressed to bring down Mephiston, Lysander, or Abaddon in single combat.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I assume by Black Crusade you mean Chaos in general, in which case I think all the assumptions hold pretty constant... In general, Chaos is the same as Imperial (in terms of strength) just with more mania and magic. Warp vs. Force would be an interesting comparison for the future, though, if that's what you're aiming at.

    ReplyDelete